TDN11 Question Thread

[XeroChaiLatte]

My biggest question in regards to the changes being made is why? If the server is behind on development why is everything getting changed? The server had a beta test where lots of people participated but now it feels like all of that time and effort from the community was wasted. Will there be another beta test before launch with the new changes? These changes make it feel like a diferent server than what it's been, we've spent a lot of time testing and providing feedback in the past for this server but now it feels like starting all over again. I've spent a lot of time waiting for TDN but at the last minute there is this huge switcheroo on the server into something I'm not sure if I am going to enjoy playing on anymore. I don't know what TDN is anymore, really until I'm able to beta test or play it again I won't know for sure. Everything I know from the past beta feels like it's changing.

 

[NeedForGreed]

I've finished looking over the changes and in particular the class changes and I have some thoughts.

Overall: Extremely positive. The caster changes in particular are very welcome, casters are traditionally ridiculously strong and game-breaking and can solo dungeons. I think they could be nerfed even more, but I think this brings them to a far more reasonable level. I disagree with the post comparing average damage vs fighters, it's like comparing apples to oranges...or apples to steak. Casters still bring immense firepower in any given moment, they just have to be more careful about how they use it. An advantage of non-casters is and should be and has always been their consistency over time. The math comparing casters to fighters only highlights that everything is still as it should be. Casters should not be dealing more damage total over a long period of time.

I've been looking at the rogue numbers and I've come to feel that they were over-nerfed a bit.

Compare their Sneak Attack percentage vs the squishiest class HP, comparing at level 11:

• Wizard's hp doubled, vanilla it is 44, now it is 88. (Personally I don't think Wizards needed the HP boost, or at least shouldn't have as much HP as rogues)
• Vanilla rogues got sneak attack 6d6 at 11, so average damage from SA itself = 21.
• Now rogues get sneak attack 4d6 at 11, so average damage at 11 is 14.
• Vanilla, rogue sneak attack would be 47% of a wizard's HP.
• Now rogue sneak attack would be 15% of a wizard's HP.

By buffing caster HP and nerfing sneak attack, rogues in comparison were possibly nerfed harder than intended. Their SA will now deal a very small fraction of any PC's health, while wizards/sorcerers still have spells which can have a much larger impact on a rogue. PvP aside, rogues feel less worthwhile in comparison to their alternatives like scout and artificer and swashbuckler.

I'd strongly consider buffing sneak attack so that it keeps up with higher HP values. Maybe something around 30% caster hp at least?

Additionally, I'd suggest adjusting some of their current bonuses. Fleet of Foot shouldn't be a level 18 ability IMO, it should be obtainable at or before level 11 since 11 is the intended "soft cap". I'd also adjust their skill bonuses to be more mid-level as well, as they're very back-loaded.

My biggest question in regards to the changes being made is why? If the server is behind on development why is everything getting changed? The server had a beta test where lots of people participated but now it feels like all of that time and effort from the community was wasted. Will there be another beta test before launch with the new changes? These changes make it feel like a diferent server than what it's been, we've spent a lot of time testing and providing feedback in the past for this server but now it feels like starting all over again. I've spent a lot of time waiting for TDN but at the last minute there is this huge switcheroo on the server into something I'm not sure if I am going to enjoy playing on anymore. I don't know what TDN is anymore, really until I'm able to beta test or play it again I won't know for sure. Everything I know from the past beta feels like it's changing.

The point of testing is to change things that need to be changed. I don't think it's very fair to talk about taking part in a playtest as if it was hard work the community put in.

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Edit: Someone explained to me that I was comparing rogue's nerf vs vanilla rogue, rather than the previous iteration of rogue. I can see and agree with the idea that rogue didn't get nerfed as much as it appears, in terms of Sneak Attack in a vacuum. My concerns about its percentage related to higher HPs remains, but I apologize for the error!

 

[Ithalan]

My biggest question in regards to the changes being made is why? If the server is behind on development why is everything getting changed? The server had a beta test where lots of people participated but now it feels like all of that time and effort from the community was wasted. Will there be another beta test before launch with the new changes? These changes make it feel like a diferent server than what it's been, we've spent a lot of time testing and providing feedback in the past for this server but now it feels like starting all over again. I've spent a lot of time waiting for TDN but at the last minute there is this huge switcheroo on the server into something I'm not sure if I am going to enjoy playing on anymore. I don't know what TDN is anymore, really until I'm able to beta test or play it again I won't know for sure. Everything I know from the past beta feels like it's changing.

This is how game development works. You set a vision for how you want the game to be, then try and realize it. If testing along the way shows that what you've created isn't actually meeting the vision you set out, then the choice is between redoing it a different way or abandoning your vision just so you can put -something- out.

Since TDN is an uncompensated labor of passion, why choose the latter?

 

[Roman53]

What is the impact on ability increases, generally and particularly for spellcasting?
A level 9 spell may require 19 int, and if ability gains occur at only 4 and 8, then you'd need start with 17 int. Or do ability gains continue on 12 and 16, or is there a change in the ability requirement for various spell levels?

 

[Gallows]

What is the impact on ability increases, generally and particularly for spellcasting?
A level 9 spell may require 19 int, and if ability gains occur at only 4 and 8, then you'd need start with 17 int. Or do ability gains continue on 12 and 16, or is there a change in the ability requirement for various spell levels?

According to some talk on the discord, you still get ability gains at 12 and 16, yes.

 

[Plunger]

I think this post succinctly puts into words my biggest concern with this entire change, and you havent even factored in the number of spells that require 3 and 4/CL that are meant to get stronger at CL 12/15/18.


The CL cap at its core is an OK change to make for casters by itself

And the cooldowns are an OK change to make for casters by themselves as well, albiet even if those cooldowns can be reduce by half accross the board, they still make casters effectively useless in any PvP situation, or pigeon hole every caster to focus on using 3 feats in order to increase their damage potential to get around the cooldowns (IE, stillspell, emp, and maximize to, for example cast the same spell 4 times in a row)

Ultimately placing both a damage nerf and a cooldown nerf on casters is a bit overboard and the math here above checks off exactly why it is that casters with the changes as written will have a terrible time coming up.


I do however understand the idea that CDs can be an effective way to reduce a spellcasters immense power, vanilla, in pvp. But;

In game design terms, its ineffective and misguided to do both of these.

You should want casters to fit into 1 of 2 categories here to make them worth playing, either

1. They are a big nuker with utility to support in times of need

Or

2. They have a lot of small damage over time to sustain damage while the melees go in for the kill.


In this instance, i think from talking with the Devs in discord that they would rather mages be picking and choosing the best time to cast spells rather than constantlt flinging spells.


At risk of this seeming like a whine post, ill say this:

My suggestion would be to pick one or the other


Either long cooldowns, or damage nerfs. Not both.


My preference would be, obviously cooldowns. As it requires a strategic use of spells both in and out of combat.

Mages who make it to level 18 should be deserving of that power level in itself.




As for the HP and BaB averaging. When i first read this i assumed that it meant smaller increases to both every level with sort of a reverse expontential curve to it.


So i would suggest personally a table that looks more like this :

BaB
Full bab

11 -> 11
12 -> 11
13 -> 12
14 -> 12
15-> 13
16 -> 13
17 -> 13
18 -> 14


3/4 bab

11 -> 9
12 -> 9
13 -> 10
14 -> 11
15-> 11
16 -> 11
17 -> 12
18 -> 12


1/2 bab

11 -> 5
12 -> 5
13 -> 5
14 -> 6
15-> 6
16 -> 6
17 -> 6
18 -> 7


With base HP per level up being halved after 11.


Thatd mean a barb or warden would get 6 hp base per level up

A fighter would get 5

A bard would get 3

A wizard, 2.


I think thats a better solution that still allows a bit of growth.


Apoligies for some mistakes or misspells im on mobile

I don't personally think a 3/4 BAB class should get the same number of iterative attacks as a full BAB class.

 

[Maladus]

With skills no longer progressing past 11, does that mean that to qualify for a prestige class that requires skills, you'll need to have those invested pre-11 if you plan to take the PrC post-11?

 

[Rin]

My main concern with reagents is having to have seven different items on your hotbar, when casters need a lot of hotbar space to begin with.
I've never done any NWN scripting, so I'm not sure if this is feasible, but would it be possible to have a system where casters activate a "prepare reagents" ability, causing your next spell to search for a reagent of that level in your inventory and consume it? If not found the spell could just cast normally without the cooldown reduction.

 

[Missy]

My main concern with reagents is having to have seven different items on your hotbar, when casters need a lot of hotbar space to begin with.
I've never done any NWN scripting, so I'm not sure if this is feasible, but would it be possible to have a system where casters activate a "prepare reagents" ability, causing your next spell to search for a reagent of that level in your inventory and consume it? If not found the spell could just cast normally without the cooldown reduction.

They'd probably use a system similar to what Arelith uses for reagents, because it's a pretty simple system. When you cast a spell of a certain circle or higher, the game checks for reagents in your inventory and removes the proper amount for the spell cast. If the reagents aren't found in sufficient quantity, the spell fails. While Arelith uses generalized reagents, TDN could definitely do the same thing with specific reagents depending on the spell, if they so choose.

 

[Khaine]

My main concern with reagents is having to have seven different items on your hotbar, when casters need a lot of hotbar space to begin with.
I've never done any NWN scripting, so I'm not sure if this is feasible, but would it be possible to have a system where casters activate a "prepare reagents" ability, causing your next spell to search for a reagent of that level in your inventory and consume it? If not found the spell could just cast normally without the cooldown reduction.

This idea is really good and probably one to follow. The issue with doing it the Arelith way would be that you don't have a choice as to whether you want to use the reagent or not, at least from the way it's been explained. We aren't using reagents in such a way that they're required to cast; they're intended to be an optional/strategic use item for when you think you may need to have your cooldowns up faster, or just a way of paying money to have to wait less between casts but within your control.

The idea Rin is putting forward is effectively what Arelith does, just with a conscious choice of whether a spell uses those reagents or not, and I really like it.