Hello, I'm taking up the suggestion from @krezk and offer a feedback here on the whole matter as I have some thought on the matter.
Krezk original post if it's hard to catch the right context at the beginning:
I'll start with: I like the anti-magic sentiment in the setting and I too would like to be represented in a fun and engaging way in our RP, I do agree that to do that, we can't simply rely on individual player attitude and we can't ask the DMs to be on constant lookout to deliver a big "character development moment" whenever they want to rectify an attitude. We need mechanics.
So let's talk mechanics, and let's talk magic/martial balance first:
Right now many people see magic as underpowered (especially after the wisp update). I'll say it *feels* that way, but mostly because magic (buffs) are very much exponential. The single +1 feels almost a waste of spellslots (a very valuable resource you could use to do a burst of damage/heal) but it quickly creates an EUIV level of stack modifiers that becomes a considerable boon when done en masse or, especially, at higher levels. This is a *nightmare* balance wise, because the single spell feel (and maybe is) weak, but the layering of them between levels and classes creates absolute killing machines that can't be stopped. It's a very difficult balancing act, because players don't want to feel useless and weak (I'm a lvl 9 cleric and I can't hit for shit) but you can't basically make the magic gameplay simply the meta compared to what a martial can do.
But what are the big differences between martial gameplay and magic gameplay?
Let's compare a group of martials and a group of mixed casters and martials in PVE.
The Maritals:
The Casters:
The two gamestyle are somewhat on a similar playing field, martials have a more consistent performance while casters mostly sits on the good use of their limited spellslots. I'd say the rest mechanic generally balances out the time spent between the two (caster burn encounter faster but will need a rest, martials take a bit more but do not need rest).
Having said that... does these mechanics bring the very much requested anti-magic sentiment?
Currently the main mechanical push for anti magic are the wisps which are a somewhat random punishment to whoever uses buffs and during the casting of damage spells with very little way to engage with them save to run or for some classes to manage them a little with some tools they have.
So right now, they are seen very much as "job hazards", something unfortunate but that will eventually happen, casters at best they can just say "yea, sometimes I spawn wisps" and that's the end of it. Some players do some light banter about them and how it's the fault of the casters, but it's very much harmless banter that at best results in a martial asking to not get buffed (simply making the encounters a bit harder for everyone). Them being this random and sometimes very much adventure ending (some effects just force you to go back to town in different ways)... people have adopted a fatalistic approach to them and this mechanic serve little to further anti-magic imho.
The other swing of the pendulum could be to simply refuse to interact with magic oriented characters or ask them to do not play their class while in their presence, but this attitude has little to nothing to do with the wisps, as it was already present and part of some characters concept.
While I understand the latter from an IC perspective, it's simply not possible to ask for about a half of the server population to essentially give up PVE play. I'm sure someone likes just being a city dweller, RPing about research they made or things that happened inside the city walls or just act, essentially, like a warlock: they can't use their kit because they are in hiding, and need to keep the cover up. This one is a cool aspect to play but given the current server composition of players, simply not possible to enforce without a big steer in the setting (which could very much bring people to leave the server at this point or shelf their characters to switch to martials for a way to interact with the PVE aspect). I other words: if I can't play my caster class, I can surely just stay in the back, hold the torch and keep shouting "oh oh! watch out! dodge that hit!" or basically be a 5 level lower martial with a crossbow that basically can't hit anything after a certain level.
But that isn't that interesting to engage with.
On a more concise feedback on wisps after all this wall of text (I'm sorry I can't help it):
I feel the anti-magic sentiment to be enjoyable from the magic users (and not just be sadism/wanting to play hard more) and the martials (so they are not being outclassed due to nwn ruleset) needs different things other than just wisps. And to add to that, the anti-magic shouldn't just be "magic bad" because magic is highly unpredictable and harmful, but mostly because people do not handle magic with care. It's really hard to codify care in "don't cast too much buffs, so try to don't play your kit too much", especially when the limits are very much blurred (nobody knows how many buffs are safe? Now that they are even weaker than vanilla and last way less, it's not matter of choosing which, you need them all to be proficient).
There has to be room for a "proper use of magic", a respectful use that possibly is tied to mechanics to avoid narrative dissonance. Right now this is fairly impossible, but as said previously, if there is no way to be a "good wizard" then nobody will bother you for the wisps, as you did nothing wrong.
I do want to think more about all this but I'll try to offer some random ideas that I think may foster this anti-magic sentiment more:
I have some few more ideas about the matter, but needs more time in the oven. As for the above ideas, I am fairly sure they would require INTENSE coding and they hardly can be readily available, so I am aware they aren't easy fixes. But I do believe that the only way to make the "anti magic" feel more present in the setting is to shift the issues magic gives from the single party and instead move them towards a "community issues", much like littering! If the place becomes filled with trash, it's matter of the community to first go clean it (even by paying taxes to have it done by someone or just as a strictly community effort) and then to check that it won't happen again, by enforcing rules. Along with that, I feel the only way to *really* get people angry at casters for the anomalies is to make them less random and more something a caster can sense they are about to come out: so it's on them for not having shown restraint instead of a "job hazard".
There we go, I'm not sure if what I bring to the table is of any substantial worth, as I have only played one character and obviously my view on things isn't that extensive, but I hope the reasoning and suggestion I bring might actually foster some ideas that can help us reduce the narrative dissonance between enjoying PVE as a caster and the setting!
Krezk original post if it's hard to catch the right context at the beginning:
I'll start with: I like the anti-magic sentiment in the setting and I too would like to be represented in a fun and engaging way in our RP, I do agree that to do that, we can't simply rely on individual player attitude and we can't ask the DMs to be on constant lookout to deliver a big "character development moment" whenever they want to rectify an attitude. We need mechanics.
So let's talk mechanics, and let's talk magic/martial balance first:
Right now many people see magic as underpowered (especially after the wisp update). I'll say it *feels* that way, but mostly because magic (buffs) are very much exponential. The single +1 feels almost a waste of spellslots (a very valuable resource you could use to do a burst of damage/heal) but it quickly creates an EUIV level of stack modifiers that becomes a considerable boon when done en masse or, especially, at higher levels. This is a *nightmare* balance wise, because the single spell feel (and maybe is) weak, but the layering of them between levels and classes creates absolute killing machines that can't be stopped. It's a very difficult balancing act, because players don't want to feel useless and weak (I'm a lvl 9 cleric and I can't hit for shit) but you can't basically make the magic gameplay simply the meta compared to what a martial can do.
But what are the big differences between martial gameplay and magic gameplay?
Let's compare a group of martials and a group of mixed casters and martials in PVE.
The Maritals:
- Constant and high damage output (can also brute force some immunities since the last creature balance update, so no casters needed there)
- Large HP pool (which can be easily restored by just applying fairly cheap kits)
- Little to no need to use the rest mechanic (most of their skills are with flat cooldowns or even without those most of their fighting prowess stays the same)
- Vulnerable to debuffs (diseases, ability damage and level drain if not with the use of costly potions and not always available)
- Lack of "bursts" that can turn the tide of the fight save for some consumables (trauma kits, grenades etc)
The Casters:
- Moderate damage consistently, but high damage in burst (either by damage spells or short term buffs)
- Limited HP pool (compared to martials)
- Enhanced versatility in dealing with debuffs or harder than usual encounters, but very much depending on the spell choices of the individual caster
- Very limited rest mechanic due to spellslots, if without them and possibly even without buffs, their are incredibly subpar, from 3 to 5 level lower than a martial counterpart
- Forced to interact with the Wisp mechanic, which can be a light nuisance or a true adventure ending scenario
The two gamestyle are somewhat on a similar playing field, martials have a more consistent performance while casters mostly sits on the good use of their limited spellslots. I'd say the rest mechanic generally balances out the time spent between the two (caster burn encounter faster but will need a rest, martials take a bit more but do not need rest).
Having said that... does these mechanics bring the very much requested anti-magic sentiment?
Currently the main mechanical push for anti magic are the wisps which are a somewhat random punishment to whoever uses buffs and during the casting of damage spells with very little way to engage with them save to run or for some classes to manage them a little with some tools they have.
So right now, they are seen very much as "job hazards", something unfortunate but that will eventually happen, casters at best they can just say "yea, sometimes I spawn wisps" and that's the end of it. Some players do some light banter about them and how it's the fault of the casters, but it's very much harmless banter that at best results in a martial asking to not get buffed (simply making the encounters a bit harder for everyone). Them being this random and sometimes very much adventure ending (some effects just force you to go back to town in different ways)... people have adopted a fatalistic approach to them and this mechanic serve little to further anti-magic imho.
The other swing of the pendulum could be to simply refuse to interact with magic oriented characters or ask them to do not play their class while in their presence, but this attitude has little to nothing to do with the wisps, as it was already present and part of some characters concept.
While I understand the latter from an IC perspective, it's simply not possible to ask for about a half of the server population to essentially give up PVE play. I'm sure someone likes just being a city dweller, RPing about research they made or things that happened inside the city walls or just act, essentially, like a warlock: they can't use their kit because they are in hiding, and need to keep the cover up. This one is a cool aspect to play but given the current server composition of players, simply not possible to enforce without a big steer in the setting (which could very much bring people to leave the server at this point or shelf their characters to switch to martials for a way to interact with the PVE aspect). I other words: if I can't play my caster class, I can surely just stay in the back, hold the torch and keep shouting "oh oh! watch out! dodge that hit!" or basically be a 5 level lower martial with a crossbow that basically can't hit anything after a certain level.
But that isn't that interesting to engage with.
On a more concise feedback on wisps after all this wall of text (I'm sorry I can't help it):
- They are fairly easy to avoid the consequence of them (running away, some class can do something about them and there are some items*)
- Some effects are straight up punishing of people's time even for a very time intensive activity that is playing NWN
- They are erratic in the spawn, making the only way to avoid them to simply not cast magic (and thus not playing your character, but just be frustratingly weak)
- Seen as a "job hazard" by those character who engage in PVE and simply handwaved
I feel the anti-magic sentiment to be enjoyable from the magic users (and not just be sadism/wanting to play hard more) and the martials (so they are not being outclassed due to nwn ruleset) needs different things other than just wisps. And to add to that, the anti-magic shouldn't just be "magic bad" because magic is highly unpredictable and harmful, but mostly because people do not handle magic with care. It's really hard to codify care in "don't cast too much buffs, so try to don't play your kit too much", especially when the limits are very much blurred (nobody knows how many buffs are safe? Now that they are even weaker than vanilla and last way less, it's not matter of choosing which, you need them all to be proficient).
There has to be room for a "proper use of magic", a respectful use that possibly is tied to mechanics to avoid narrative dissonance. Right now this is fairly impossible, but as said previously, if there is no way to be a "good wizard" then nobody will bother you for the wisps, as you did nothing wrong.
I do want to think more about all this but I'll try to offer some random ideas that I think may foster this anti-magic sentiment more:
- Excess of magic taints the area
The mobs in the dungeon changes or get stronger while having the same rewards, but this is not just for the current party, but for a while. This "harms" the entire community as the dungeon is harder but without higher reward in toe. An interesting aspect of this "magic infested dungeon" could be the requirement to have it "cleaned" to shorten the magic taint by other players. It could obviously go both ways: PSKs going in to fix this mess and get the glory, or even other casters going in with specific items to deal with this. This "infection" could also spread to nearby dungeons, making the need to fix the situation a priority for the player community as well as pushing for proper behaviour. The items to "clean" the dungeons could become a money sink or tied to crafting, but also have an asymmetrical aspect to it (cheaper for the PSKs to use, maybe?). THIS however needs to have a mechanic that allows magic users to "feel" how close to "infection" is a place, so they can moderate themselves or create RP opportunities around it. For example, magic users can "taste" the weave in the area by a spellcraft roll, whether at will or limited times per rest, forcing them to take care of the resource.
- Excess of magic taints THE LOOT
Similar to the above, but this time mostly affects the loot, making it less valuable or to a point illegal and dangerous. A "cursed" tankard could be carried around but it WILL spawn wisps until the charges are drained. Imagine selling this one to Mirtos or whoever... Wisps appearing in town because someone slipped a weave infected ingot! Panic! We must find the item! This again, offers opportunities for RP and play from various kinds of characters, whether the true anti magic crowd (PSKs can remove the "curse" easily but it obviously comes with RP) or the pro magic crowd (alchemists take those cursed items and move them away to be "cleaned"). This method of "cleaning the loot" could maybe become the norm in high level dungeon, creating a system "similar" to the ones seen in extraction shooter (I think?). Again, it's something that can foster cooperation and RP to "fix" a solution created by an excess use of magic, because someone didn't really care to let the weave rest and they just wanted to finish the dungeon... but this created a problem for all the people after them! Remember, always recycle (the weave)!
- Magic CHANGES people
Power corrupts! This is a more controversial suggestion, but if I were to receive a message that tells me that magic is affecting my character currently and, maybe, made them more fearful, or more courageous, or even just more benevolent or wicked... I would be intrigued to RP as a consequence of that. It's controversial because most players do not like their agencies taken away at all and it hardly comes with mechanics, but I feel it's an interesting aspect to have a temporary RP prompt that I need to follow because magic is messing up with my mind, even if it's temporary. Also consider this: what if magic becomes an addiction? What if we can give some mechanical aspect to it. "You have cast too much high level spells, you have become temporary addicted to the weave, you'll need to cast a spell against another player or you will keep getting growing debuffs for this amount of time as you are dealing with magic withdrawal". Again, controversial, but it can creates many interesting RP situations where magic users are seen with growing suspicion by the mundane and the magic users themselves understand their power needs to be put in the right hands.
I have some few more ideas about the matter, but needs more time in the oven. As for the above ideas, I am fairly sure they would require INTENSE coding and they hardly can be readily available, so I am aware they aren't easy fixes. But I do believe that the only way to make the "anti magic" feel more present in the setting is to shift the issues magic gives from the single party and instead move them towards a "community issues", much like littering! If the place becomes filled with trash, it's matter of the community to first go clean it (even by paying taxes to have it done by someone or just as a strictly community effort) and then to check that it won't happen again, by enforcing rules. Along with that, I feel the only way to *really* get people angry at casters for the anomalies is to make them less random and more something a caster can sense they are about to come out: so it's on them for not having shown restraint instead of a "job hazard".
There we go, I'm not sure if what I bring to the table is of any substantial worth, as I have only played one character and obviously my view on things isn't that extensive, but I hope the reasoning and suggestion I bring might actually foster some ideas that can help us reduce the narrative dissonance between enjoying PVE as a caster and the setting!
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