I have given a lot of complaints regarding the wiki’s pantheon section for being either poorly sourced, weirdly written, or just wrong in 2e context. It would take a VERY long time for me to run through every single description, and try to rewrite each one within a similar framework; to see what is wrong and what is right, so I just think overhauling it entirely could be easier. TDN’s wiki description per deity is structured in this manner:
Short Description of Deity
Specialty Priest Roles/Hierarchy Titles
Priestly Vestments
This format is really odd to me, because you’ll have quotes like this all throughout the wiki:
“Talonite priests of 2nd level or less are considered probationary initiates. Only upon reaching 3rd level are they formally inducted into the priesthood. Specialty priests of Talona, known as Malagents, wield poisoned daggers and serve as the adventuring and internal policing arm of the faith. They make up about 45% of Talona’s clergy members and are slowly ascending to dominance of the faith, with clerics (40%) and mystics (15%) comprising the remainder of the priesthood. Specialty priests are addressed as “Most Fatal Horror” and are sometimes - not to their faces - known as “Fatals” to other Talonites.”
Why would any of this information be relevant? And why is Dogma missing? Dogma should be one of the major things established in the wiki, because it’s a known piece of knowledge written IC.
And while a brief section on priestly vestments is nice, it’s ultimately niche, and if players want to find something for it, they should just check the sources themselves.
In Faiths & Avatars, the page for each god is divided into 14 main categories
Starting Description
History
Avatar
Other Manifestations
The Church
Titles/Ranks
Dogma
Day-to-Day Activities
Holy Days/Important Ceremonies
Major Centers of Worship
Affiliated Orders
Priestly Vestments
Adventuring Garb
Specialty Priests
Obviously, there is a lot we can cut down on. For one; the percentages about specialty priests are non-existent mechanics on TDN, so all of that is not needed. Avatar mechanics are pointless, manifestations are niche and do not really fit in TDN lore. Most of this can all be cut, leaving us with:
Description
The Church
Dogma
But this is still very long. Instead, the wiki should use the 3.5e source; Faiths & Pantheons, which mostly uses writing from the 2e source, now shortened a bit. The new descriptions would instead follow this format. I made examples for Auril, Beshaba, Deneir, Talona, and Siamorphe, which are all approximately the same length as the TDN wiki descriptions.
AURIL
Auril (aw-rill) is a fickle, vain, evil deity with a heart of ice who is venerated primarily out of fear. She remains untouched by any hint of true love, noble feeling, or honor. She enjoys toying with those who offend her, trapping them in snow storms and then driving them insane, with tantalizing visions of warmth and the comforts of home before freezing them to death. Her beauty is cold and deadly, the flower of womanhood preserved forever in a slab of arctic ice—with sensibilities to match the ice.
The church of Auril is very loosely and informally organized, and clergy members wander and are largely independent. They seek to make all folk fear their deity and her clergy (to cut down on the attacks they face) through the fury of the winter weather. They also generate personal wealth and influence by carrying out tasks that others cannot in the worst winter weather and by magically protecting those who pay or obey from the worst winter conditions. Clergy members make offerings to the deity of some of the wealth they amass by scattering it in falling snow during a storm or throwing it through cracks in river ice or glacial crevasses during the winter.
Dogma: Cover all the lands with ice. Quench fire wherever it is found. Let in the winds and the cold; cut down wind/ breaks and chop holes in walls and roofs that my breath may come in. Work darkness to hide the cursed sun so that the chill the Auril brings may slay. Take the life of an arctic creature only in great need, but slay all others at will. Make all Faerun fear the Frostmaiden. Revere the Cold Goddess and sing her praises into any chill breeze or winter wind; Do not raise your hand against any other cleric of Auril
BESHABA
Beshaba (be-shah-ba) is a deity who is feared far more than she is venerated, for she is spiteful, petty, and malicious. The Maid of Misfortune is given to random behavior and bouts of extreme jealousy with regards to her sister, demanding equal veneration (or at least lip service) to that given to Tymora. Although the thought of Beshaba actually appearing is enough to make most folk tremble, she is always invited and welcomed formally in speeches or ceremonies of formal functions (such as marriages and coronations), contests of sport or martial prowess, or at the naming of children. If not invited, she may take offense and wreak endless misfortune upon those involved.
Beshaba is worshiped largely out of fear, and it is the task of her clergy to spread that fear by starting talk of Beshaba’s power and latest wickedness and by instructing all in how to make offerings to her or in how to join her clergy if they would prefer to be protected against all misfortune. Along the way, the members of her clergy take care to indulge their tastes for random cruelty and sadism. They enjoy acting mysteriously to manipulate simpler folk into serving them in matters both great and small, from providing them with food, luxurious shelter, and companionship to giving them weapons to wield against their rivals in the church of Beshaba and against the clergy of all other faiths.
Dogma: Bad things happen to everyone, and only by following Beshaba may a person perhaps be spared the worst of her effects. Too much good luck is a bad thing, and-to even it out, the wise should plan to undermine the fortunate. Whatever happens, it can only get worse, Fear the Maid of Misfortune and revere her. Spread the message across Faerin to obey Beshaba and make offerings to appease her. If she is not appeased, all will taste firsthand the curse that is spreading throughout Faerun: “Beshaba provides!” (misery and misfortune), Make others worship Beshaba and then they will be spared the ill luck she can bring. Never falsely advise any being on how to worship Beshaba, or pay the price of being cast out and cursed with misfortune all their days.
DENEIR
In the realm of the ideal, a single work of writing when read, will unlock the secrets of the multiverse, catapulting its reader to the heights of godhood. The pursuit of this work, known as the Metatext, consumes the deity Deneir (deh-veer) and his followers. It is said that Deneir, a servant of Oghma the Binder, first achieved his position among the deities by glimpsing the merest portion of this text, and that the need to read the entire work gives him purpose. Deneir believes that the Metatext is reflected in the Prime Plane through snippets of every written work ever committed to paper. A word here, a juxtaposition of letters there, and (rarely) even entire sentences of particularly enlightened writing echo the ideal work. As patron to artists, illuminators, cartographers, and scribes, the Lord of All Glyphs and Images oversees all written creation, desperately hunting his elusive charge.
Deneir’s church is concerned with the gathering and recording of information so that nothing written is lost. Most keep a journal of their activities, including poems, songs, and stories they hear on their journeys. Each cleric takes a vow of charity, agreeing to write or read letters and transcribe information (this is done for free for the poor, at the cost of materials plus a silver piece for those able to afford it, and at standard scribe’s rates for the well-off). They teach people how to read, and most learn the Scribe Scroll feat in order to be able to make magical scrolls.
Dogma: Information that is not recorded and saved for later use is information that is lost. Punish those who deface or destroy a book in proportion to the value of the information lost. Literacy is an important gift from Deneir; spread it wherever you travel, that it might touch the hearts and minds of all in Faerun. Fill idle hours with the copying of written work, for in such a manner do you propagate knowledge and aid the pursuit of the Metatext. Information should be free to all and all should be able to read it so that lying tongues cannot distort things out of proportion
TALONA
Talona (tah-/ow-nah) is often depicted as a withered old crone with a scarred, tattooed face in religious texts. Where she walks, misfortune and death follow. She has the personality of a petulant, greedy child trapped in the body of a once-beautiful woman now scarred by horrific disease and ravaged by age. She alternately desires attention at any cost like a small child and becomes aloof like a wounded paramour who has been discarded by her love.
The church of Talona is organized in a strict hierarchy, but riven by factions and sects. Aside from selling poisons, antidotes, and medicines, the Talonites travel Faerûn as quietly as possible, constantly seeking out new diseases and afflictions and spreading rumors so as to augment the reputation of Talona. What seems to motivate Talonites in their day-to-day behavior is a quest for respect: respect that is due Talona for her potentially devastating abilities and due them as her representatives in Faerun. Throughout their careers, Talona’s clerics work with magic and study to build their personal immunities to various poisons and diseases. Thus protected; they treat the diseased, take employment as food tasters for paranoid rulers, wealthy merchants, and nobles, and bury those who have died from diseases. Whenever a realm or city-state casts out or punishes any Talonites, for any reason, clerics of Talona work to cause a plague in that place to exact “Talona’s price” for such insults. Rumors have circulated that certain unscrupulous Talonites have occasionally. chosen wealthy folk as targets for disease so that wealth and properties can be seized by the church upon the death of these wealthy owners, with the threat of contracting disease keeping rightful heirs and claimants at bay.
Dogma: Let pain be as pleasure, for life and death are in balance, but death is the more powerful and should be paid proper homage and respect. Death is the true power, the great equalizer, and the lesson that waits for all. If it falls to you to drive home the point with the tip of a dagger, so be it. The Mother of All Plagues works upon you from within, and weakness and wasting is her strength. Talona’s breath is forever and always with you, whomever you or the rest of the world believes in or serves. Let all living things learn respect from Talona and pay homage to her in goods and in fervent worship. If they do so, intercede for them so that Talona will not claim them—this time. Go and work in Talona’s name and let your: doings be subtle or spectacular, but make them known as the will of the Mistress of Disease.
SIAMORPHE
Siamorphe (sigh-a-morf) is kind and quiet with individuals, but firm and charismatic when dealing with large groups. Her soft voice is tinged with great wisdom, but she brooks no argument when she gives an order. She likes to think of her duty as one of building a sturdy skeleton of continuity in government through a noble infrastructure so that the body politic can grow and develop properly under the leadership of a royal ruler.
The church of Siamorphe is strictly ordered but small, confined primarily to the nobility of Waterdeep and Tethyr. Siamorphe’s clerics are expected to serve as advisers and councilors to noble rulers. When confronted with a ruler of noble birth who does not keep himself or herself fit for the task and responsibilities of rule, a cleric of Siamorphe must either seek to rectify that ruler’s shortcomings through counseling and education or engineer the ruler’s succession by a more fit ruler of noble lineage. In practice, many Scions of Siamorphe spend their days presiding over various advisory councils, researching genealogies and histories of noble families, coordinating ceremonies of investiture, and determining who is next in line for various titles; Those Scions of Siamorphe who have truly taken Siamorphe’s message of responsibility to the common folk to heart spend their days serving the people, providing advice, arbitrating disputes, giving leaderless folk direction, and preaching the rights and responsibilities of the nobility and the duties and rights of commoners.
Dogma: Nobles are the rightful rulers of the bulk of humankind provided that they keep fit for the task and responsibilities of rule. Nobles have the moral obligation to rule in the best manner possible for the people who serve under them, even if their obligations conflict with their personal desires. The descendants of noble bloodlines inherit their charisma and potential for wisdom from their noble ancestors. Their family fortunes provide them enough leisure time to be properly educated as rulers. The regular inheritance of noble titles by strict inheritance rules reduces the potential for power struggles between rival claimants to leadership. A strong noble class that cares for the commoners of Faerun and looks out for their best interests is the most stable, fair form of government.
How is this for a structure? Would you prefer anything else from the 2e list be included? I can re-phrase all the deities into this general structure of description, church, dogma; if the team is fine with it?
Short Description of Deity
Specialty Priest Roles/Hierarchy Titles
Priestly Vestments
This format is really odd to me, because you’ll have quotes like this all throughout the wiki:
“Talonite priests of 2nd level or less are considered probationary initiates. Only upon reaching 3rd level are they formally inducted into the priesthood. Specialty priests of Talona, known as Malagents, wield poisoned daggers and serve as the adventuring and internal policing arm of the faith. They make up about 45% of Talona’s clergy members and are slowly ascending to dominance of the faith, with clerics (40%) and mystics (15%) comprising the remainder of the priesthood. Specialty priests are addressed as “Most Fatal Horror” and are sometimes - not to their faces - known as “Fatals” to other Talonites.”
Why would any of this information be relevant? And why is Dogma missing? Dogma should be one of the major things established in the wiki, because it’s a known piece of knowledge written IC.
And while a brief section on priestly vestments is nice, it’s ultimately niche, and if players want to find something for it, they should just check the sources themselves.
In Faiths & Avatars, the page for each god is divided into 14 main categories
Starting Description
History
Avatar
Other Manifestations
The Church
Titles/Ranks
Dogma
Day-to-Day Activities
Holy Days/Important Ceremonies
Major Centers of Worship
Affiliated Orders
Priestly Vestments
Adventuring Garb
Specialty Priests
Obviously, there is a lot we can cut down on. For one; the percentages about specialty priests are non-existent mechanics on TDN, so all of that is not needed. Avatar mechanics are pointless, manifestations are niche and do not really fit in TDN lore. Most of this can all be cut, leaving us with:
Description
The Church
Dogma
But this is still very long. Instead, the wiki should use the 3.5e source; Faiths & Pantheons, which mostly uses writing from the 2e source, now shortened a bit. The new descriptions would instead follow this format. I made examples for Auril, Beshaba, Deneir, Talona, and Siamorphe, which are all approximately the same length as the TDN wiki descriptions.
AURIL
Auril (aw-rill) is a fickle, vain, evil deity with a heart of ice who is venerated primarily out of fear. She remains untouched by any hint of true love, noble feeling, or honor. She enjoys toying with those who offend her, trapping them in snow storms and then driving them insane, with tantalizing visions of warmth and the comforts of home before freezing them to death. Her beauty is cold and deadly, the flower of womanhood preserved forever in a slab of arctic ice—with sensibilities to match the ice.
The church of Auril is very loosely and informally organized, and clergy members wander and are largely independent. They seek to make all folk fear their deity and her clergy (to cut down on the attacks they face) through the fury of the winter weather. They also generate personal wealth and influence by carrying out tasks that others cannot in the worst winter weather and by magically protecting those who pay or obey from the worst winter conditions. Clergy members make offerings to the deity of some of the wealth they amass by scattering it in falling snow during a storm or throwing it through cracks in river ice or glacial crevasses during the winter.
Dogma: Cover all the lands with ice. Quench fire wherever it is found. Let in the winds and the cold; cut down wind/ breaks and chop holes in walls and roofs that my breath may come in. Work darkness to hide the cursed sun so that the chill the Auril brings may slay. Take the life of an arctic creature only in great need, but slay all others at will. Make all Faerun fear the Frostmaiden. Revere the Cold Goddess and sing her praises into any chill breeze or winter wind; Do not raise your hand against any other cleric of Auril
BESHABA
Beshaba (be-shah-ba) is a deity who is feared far more than she is venerated, for she is spiteful, petty, and malicious. The Maid of Misfortune is given to random behavior and bouts of extreme jealousy with regards to her sister, demanding equal veneration (or at least lip service) to that given to Tymora. Although the thought of Beshaba actually appearing is enough to make most folk tremble, she is always invited and welcomed formally in speeches or ceremonies of formal functions (such as marriages and coronations), contests of sport or martial prowess, or at the naming of children. If not invited, she may take offense and wreak endless misfortune upon those involved.
Beshaba is worshiped largely out of fear, and it is the task of her clergy to spread that fear by starting talk of Beshaba’s power and latest wickedness and by instructing all in how to make offerings to her or in how to join her clergy if they would prefer to be protected against all misfortune. Along the way, the members of her clergy take care to indulge their tastes for random cruelty and sadism. They enjoy acting mysteriously to manipulate simpler folk into serving them in matters both great and small, from providing them with food, luxurious shelter, and companionship to giving them weapons to wield against their rivals in the church of Beshaba and against the clergy of all other faiths.
Dogma: Bad things happen to everyone, and only by following Beshaba may a person perhaps be spared the worst of her effects. Too much good luck is a bad thing, and-to even it out, the wise should plan to undermine the fortunate. Whatever happens, it can only get worse, Fear the Maid of Misfortune and revere her. Spread the message across Faerin to obey Beshaba and make offerings to appease her. If she is not appeased, all will taste firsthand the curse that is spreading throughout Faerun: “Beshaba provides!” (misery and misfortune), Make others worship Beshaba and then they will be spared the ill luck she can bring. Never falsely advise any being on how to worship Beshaba, or pay the price of being cast out and cursed with misfortune all their days.
DENEIR
In the realm of the ideal, a single work of writing when read, will unlock the secrets of the multiverse, catapulting its reader to the heights of godhood. The pursuit of this work, known as the Metatext, consumes the deity Deneir (deh-veer) and his followers. It is said that Deneir, a servant of Oghma the Binder, first achieved his position among the deities by glimpsing the merest portion of this text, and that the need to read the entire work gives him purpose. Deneir believes that the Metatext is reflected in the Prime Plane through snippets of every written work ever committed to paper. A word here, a juxtaposition of letters there, and (rarely) even entire sentences of particularly enlightened writing echo the ideal work. As patron to artists, illuminators, cartographers, and scribes, the Lord of All Glyphs and Images oversees all written creation, desperately hunting his elusive charge.
Deneir’s church is concerned with the gathering and recording of information so that nothing written is lost. Most keep a journal of their activities, including poems, songs, and stories they hear on their journeys. Each cleric takes a vow of charity, agreeing to write or read letters and transcribe information (this is done for free for the poor, at the cost of materials plus a silver piece for those able to afford it, and at standard scribe’s rates for the well-off). They teach people how to read, and most learn the Scribe Scroll feat in order to be able to make magical scrolls.
Dogma: Information that is not recorded and saved for later use is information that is lost. Punish those who deface or destroy a book in proportion to the value of the information lost. Literacy is an important gift from Deneir; spread it wherever you travel, that it might touch the hearts and minds of all in Faerun. Fill idle hours with the copying of written work, for in such a manner do you propagate knowledge and aid the pursuit of the Metatext. Information should be free to all and all should be able to read it so that lying tongues cannot distort things out of proportion
TALONA
Talona (tah-/ow-nah) is often depicted as a withered old crone with a scarred, tattooed face in religious texts. Where she walks, misfortune and death follow. She has the personality of a petulant, greedy child trapped in the body of a once-beautiful woman now scarred by horrific disease and ravaged by age. She alternately desires attention at any cost like a small child and becomes aloof like a wounded paramour who has been discarded by her love.
The church of Talona is organized in a strict hierarchy, but riven by factions and sects. Aside from selling poisons, antidotes, and medicines, the Talonites travel Faerûn as quietly as possible, constantly seeking out new diseases and afflictions and spreading rumors so as to augment the reputation of Talona. What seems to motivate Talonites in their day-to-day behavior is a quest for respect: respect that is due Talona for her potentially devastating abilities and due them as her representatives in Faerun. Throughout their careers, Talona’s clerics work with magic and study to build their personal immunities to various poisons and diseases. Thus protected; they treat the diseased, take employment as food tasters for paranoid rulers, wealthy merchants, and nobles, and bury those who have died from diseases. Whenever a realm or city-state casts out or punishes any Talonites, for any reason, clerics of Talona work to cause a plague in that place to exact “Talona’s price” for such insults. Rumors have circulated that certain unscrupulous Talonites have occasionally. chosen wealthy folk as targets for disease so that wealth and properties can be seized by the church upon the death of these wealthy owners, with the threat of contracting disease keeping rightful heirs and claimants at bay.
Dogma: Let pain be as pleasure, for life and death are in balance, but death is the more powerful and should be paid proper homage and respect. Death is the true power, the great equalizer, and the lesson that waits for all. If it falls to you to drive home the point with the tip of a dagger, so be it. The Mother of All Plagues works upon you from within, and weakness and wasting is her strength. Talona’s breath is forever and always with you, whomever you or the rest of the world believes in or serves. Let all living things learn respect from Talona and pay homage to her in goods and in fervent worship. If they do so, intercede for them so that Talona will not claim them—this time. Go and work in Talona’s name and let your: doings be subtle or spectacular, but make them known as the will of the Mistress of Disease.
SIAMORPHE
Siamorphe (sigh-a-morf) is kind and quiet with individuals, but firm and charismatic when dealing with large groups. Her soft voice is tinged with great wisdom, but she brooks no argument when she gives an order. She likes to think of her duty as one of building a sturdy skeleton of continuity in government through a noble infrastructure so that the body politic can grow and develop properly under the leadership of a royal ruler.
The church of Siamorphe is strictly ordered but small, confined primarily to the nobility of Waterdeep and Tethyr. Siamorphe’s clerics are expected to serve as advisers and councilors to noble rulers. When confronted with a ruler of noble birth who does not keep himself or herself fit for the task and responsibilities of rule, a cleric of Siamorphe must either seek to rectify that ruler’s shortcomings through counseling and education or engineer the ruler’s succession by a more fit ruler of noble lineage. In practice, many Scions of Siamorphe spend their days presiding over various advisory councils, researching genealogies and histories of noble families, coordinating ceremonies of investiture, and determining who is next in line for various titles; Those Scions of Siamorphe who have truly taken Siamorphe’s message of responsibility to the common folk to heart spend their days serving the people, providing advice, arbitrating disputes, giving leaderless folk direction, and preaching the rights and responsibilities of the nobility and the duties and rights of commoners.
Dogma: Nobles are the rightful rulers of the bulk of humankind provided that they keep fit for the task and responsibilities of rule. Nobles have the moral obligation to rule in the best manner possible for the people who serve under them, even if their obligations conflict with their personal desires. The descendants of noble bloodlines inherit their charisma and potential for wisdom from their noble ancestors. Their family fortunes provide them enough leisure time to be properly educated as rulers. The regular inheritance of noble titles by strict inheritance rules reduces the potential for power struggles between rival claimants to leadership. A strong noble class that cares for the commoners of Faerun and looks out for their best interests is the most stable, fair form of government.
How is this for a structure? Would you prefer anything else from the 2e list be included? I can re-phrase all the deities into this general structure of description, church, dogma; if the team is fine with it?
