The Great Anti-Magic sentiment Thread

[Tassadarh]

Hello, I'm taking up the suggestion from @krezk and offer a feedback here on the whole matter as I have some thought on the matter.
Krezk original post if it's hard to catch the right context at the beginning:

"But now, on the above discussion. I won't rehash everything Witchbane said, I completely agree as you might suspect. All I would add are two points.

1. The sentiment that magic is just dangerous but not strong, is to me a bit shocking. I've said this before, but magic is the reason people can hit way above their weight when it comes to dungeons. It is absolutely not weak. The difference is that now you have to contend with the dangers of it as well, as intended and reinforced by the setting. Not to mention there's a fair few positive outcomes in there as well.

2. I saw a sentiment expressed about not having any way to deal with them. There are multiple ways, currently, that I beg you to find about ICly. But besides that, there is a whole system planned around interacting with magic as a whole, including anomalies. I don't want to spoil it, but it will heavily lean into player discovery as to how it works and what they can do with it. Now, if it is player RP that leads up to that system as well, that would be EXTREMELY cool. But yeah, these are things that are already kept in mind. Professions take priority, however."

I'll start with: I like the anti-magic sentiment in the setting and I too would like to be represented in a fun and engaging way in our RP, I do agree that to do that, we can't simply rely on individual player attitude and we can't ask the DMs to be on constant lookout to deliver a big "character development moment" whenever they want to rectify an attitude. We need mechanics.

So let's talk mechanics, and let's talk magic/martial balance first:

Right now many people see magic as underpowered (especially after the wisp update). I'll say it *feels* that way, but mostly because magic (buffs) are very much exponential. The single +1 feels almost a waste of spellslots (a very valuable resource you could use to do a burst of damage/heal) but it quickly creates an EUIV level of stack modifiers that becomes a considerable boon when done en masse or, especially, at higher levels. This is a *nightmare* balance wise, because the single spell feel (and maybe is) weak, but the layering of them between levels and classes creates absolute killing machines that can't be stopped. It's a very difficult balancing act, because players don't want to feel useless and weak (I'm a lvl 9 cleric and I can't hit for shit) but you can't basically make the magic gameplay simply the meta compared to what a martial can do.

But what are the big differences between martial gameplay and magic gameplay?
Let's compare a group of martials and a group of mixed casters and martials in PVE.

The Maritals:

• Constant and high damage output (can also brute force some immunities since the last creature balance update, so no casters needed there)
• Large HP pool (which can be easily restored by just applying fairly cheap kits)
• Little to no need to use the rest mechanic (most of their skills are with flat cooldowns or even without those most of their fighting prowess stays the same)
• Vulnerable to debuffs (diseases, ability damage and level drain if not with the use of costly potions and not always available)
• Lack of "bursts" that can turn the tide of the fight save for some consumables (trauma kits, grenades etc)

The Casters:

• Moderate damage consistently, but high damage in burst (either by damage spells or short term buffs)
• Limited HP pool (compared to martials)
• Enhanced versatility in dealing with debuffs or harder than usual encounters, but very much depending on the spell choices of the individual caster
• Very limited rest mechanic due to spellslots, if without them and possibly even without buffs, their are incredibly subpar, from 3 to 5 level lower than a martial counterpart
• Forced to interact with the Wisp mechanic, which can be a light nuisance or a true adventure ending scenario

The two gamestyle are somewhat on a similar playing field, martials have a more consistent performance while casters mostly sits on the good use of their limited spellslots. I'd say the rest mechanic generally balances out the time spent between the two (caster burn encounter faster but will need a rest, martials take a bit more but do not need rest).

Having said that... does these mechanics bring the very much requested anti-magic sentiment?
Currently the main mechanical push for anti magic are the wisps which are a somewhat random punishment to whoever uses buffs and during the casting of damage spells with very little way to engage with them save to run or for some classes to manage them a little with some tools they have.
So right now, they are seen very much as "job hazards", something unfortunate but that will eventually happen, casters at best they can just say "yea, sometimes I spawn wisps" and that's the end of it. Some players do some light banter about them and how it's the fault of the casters, but it's very much harmless banter that at best results in a martial asking to not get buffed (simply making the encounters a bit harder for everyone). Them being this random and sometimes very much adventure ending (some effects just force you to go back to town in different ways)... people have adopted a fatalistic approach to them and this mechanic serve little to further anti-magic imho.

The other swing of the pendulum could be to simply refuse to interact with magic oriented characters or ask them to do not play their class while in their presence, but this attitude has little to nothing to do with the wisps, as it was already present and part of some characters concept.

While I understand the latter from an IC perspective, it's simply not possible to ask for about a half of the server population to essentially give up PVE play. I'm sure someone likes just being a city dweller, RPing about research they made or things that happened inside the city walls or just act, essentially, like a warlock: they can't use their kit because they are in hiding, and need to keep the cover up. This one is a cool aspect to play but given the current server composition of players, simply not possible to enforce without a big steer in the setting (which could very much bring people to leave the server at this point or shelf their characters to switch to martials for a way to interact with the PVE aspect). I other words: if I can't play my caster class, I can surely just stay in the back, hold the torch and keep shouting "oh oh! watch out! dodge that hit!" or basically be a 5 level lower martial with a crossbow that basically can't hit anything after a certain level.

But that isn't that interesting to engage with.

On a more concise feedback on wisps after all this wall of text (I'm sorry I can't help it):

• They are fairly easy to avoid the consequence of them (running away, some class can do something about them and there are some items*)
• Some effects are straight up punishing of people's time even for a very time intensive activity that is playing NWN
• They are erratic in the spawn, making the only way to avoid them to simply not cast magic (and thus not playing your character, but just be frustratingly weak)
• Seen as a "job hazard" by those character who engage in PVE and simply handwaved

* The items used to "solve" them really makes them trivial at points, pushing for hoarding of said items and from a narrative perspective the appearance of said items would simply make the wisps an issue basically half solved. I think the items should have been gated between some public questline and their temporary presence maybe be explained as a "teaser" for their eventual return. Even if they aren't the end all be all of magic danger, wisps are pretty "democratic" in their chaos, if we tie their effectiveness in causing trouble to just enough wealth to have the right things to rend them useless, it really diminishes the scare factor.

I feel the anti-magic sentiment to be enjoyable from the magic users (and not just be sadism/wanting to play hard more) and the martials (so they are not being outclassed due to nwn ruleset) needs different things other than just wisps. And to add to that, the anti-magic shouldn't just be "magic bad" because magic is highly unpredictable and harmful, but mostly because people do not handle magic with care. It's really hard to codify care in "don't cast too much buffs, so try to don't play your kit too much", especially when the limits are very much blurred (nobody knows how many buffs are safe? Now that they are even weaker than vanilla and last way less, it's not matter of choosing which, you need them all to be proficient).
There has to be room for a "proper use of magic", a respectful use that possibly is tied to mechanics to avoid narrative dissonance. Right now this is fairly impossible, but as said previously, if there is no way to be a "good wizard" then nobody will bother you for the wisps, as you did nothing wrong.

I do want to think more about all this but I'll try to offer some random ideas that I think may foster this anti-magic sentiment more:

• Excess of magic taints the area
  The mobs in the dungeon changes or get stronger while having the same rewards, but this is not just for the current party, but for a while. This "harms" the entire community as the dungeon is harder but without higher reward in toe. An interesting aspect of this "magic infested dungeon" could be the requirement to have it "cleaned" to shorten the magic taint by other players. It could obviously go both ways: PSKs going in to fix this mess and get the glory, or even other casters going in with specific items to deal with this. This "infection" could also spread to nearby dungeons, making the need to fix the situation a priority for the player community as well as pushing for proper behaviour. The items to "clean" the dungeons could become a money sink or tied to crafting, but also have an asymmetrical aspect to it (cheaper for the PSKs to use, maybe?). THIS however needs to have a mechanic that allows magic users to "feel" how close to "infection" is a place, so they can moderate themselves or create RP opportunities around it. For example, magic users can "taste" the weave in the area by a spellcraft roll, whether at will or limited times per rest, forcing them to take care of the resource.
  
  
• Excess of magic taints THE LOOT
  Similar to the above, but this time mostly affects the loot, making it less valuable or to a point illegal and dangerous. A "cursed" tankard could be carried around but it WILL spawn wisps until the charges are drained. Imagine selling this one to Mirtos or whoever... Wisps appearing in town because someone slipped a weave infected ingot! Panic! We must find the item! This again, offers opportunities for RP and play from various kinds of characters, whether the true anti magic crowd (PSKs can remove the "curse" easily but it obviously comes with RP) or the pro magic crowd (alchemists take those cursed items and move them away to be "cleaned"). This method of "cleaning the loot" could maybe become the norm in high level dungeon, creating a system "similar" to the ones seen in extraction shooter (I think?). Again, it's something that can foster cooperation and RP to "fix" a solution created by an excess use of magic, because someone didn't really care to let the weave rest and they just wanted to finish the dungeon... but this created a problem for all the people after them! Remember, always recycle (the weave)!
  
  
• Magic CHANGES people
  Power corrupts! This is a more controversial suggestion, but if I were to receive a message that tells me that magic is affecting my character currently and, maybe, made them more fearful, or more courageous, or even just more benevolent or wicked... I would be intrigued to RP as a consequence of that. It's controversial because most players do not like their agencies taken away at all and it hardly comes with mechanics, but I feel it's an interesting aspect to have a temporary RP prompt that I need to follow because magic is messing up with my mind, even if it's temporary. Also consider this: what if magic becomes an addiction? What if we can give some mechanical aspect to it. "You have cast too much high level spells, you have become temporary addicted to the weave, you'll need to cast a spell against another player or you will keep getting growing debuffs for this amount of time as you are dealing with magic withdrawal". Again, controversial, but it can creates many interesting RP situations where magic users are seen with growing suspicion by the mundane and the magic users themselves understand their power needs to be put in the right hands.

I have some few more ideas about the matter, but needs more time in the oven. As for the above ideas, I am fairly sure they would require INTENSE coding and they hardly can be readily available, so I am aware they aren't easy fixes. But I do believe that the only way to make the "anti magic" feel more present in the setting is to shift the issues magic gives from the single party and instead move them towards a "community issues", much like littering! If the place becomes filled with trash, it's matter of the community to first go clean it (even by paying taxes to have it done by someone or just as a strictly community effort) and then to check that it won't happen again, by enforcing rules. Along with that, I feel the only way to *really* get people angry at casters for the anomalies is to make them less random and more something a caster can sense they are about to come out: so it's on them for not having shown restraint instead of a "job hazard".

There we go, I'm not sure if what I bring to the table is of any substantial worth, as I have only played one character and obviously my view on things isn't that extensive, but I hope the reasoning and suggestion I bring might actually foster some ideas that can help us reduce the narrative dissonance between enjoying PVE as a caster and the setting!

 

[Yavamaya]

I've got many thoughts on the matter, but the only one I have a fully-formed opinion on currently is the idea of making it a "community issue". It already is. In fact, while avoiding full spoilers - there is a very expensive ongoing player-oriented plotline that has grown from the idea of magic being a community issue due to damage wisps can do and pose (and have done/posed) to NPCs and PCs alike. It's not a hard-coded thing, and I don't think it necessarily needs to be or even should be.
As to the three proposals you have-

• Tainting a zone is, honestly, rad. I see two problems with it out-of-hand, though. First is that divorcing the result from a single person's action increases the ability to simply ignore the worldbuilding of magic being dangerous. Second, once it gets to a point that the zone -is- too dangerous... well, then I would think people simply wouldn't interact with that zone until reset, if possible. I'm sure there are workarounds and fine-tuning that could be done to bring this system into a really good functionality but that seems like it would be along the lines of a seriously intensive core system of a server.
• Cursed loot in a 3.x-based game, while also cool idea - particularly in a pen-and-paper game - I think would result in a less enjoyable playtime for martial characters who classically rely on their loot intake for their power level in NwN.
• I don't know that I can wrap my head around the implications of the "changing" people suggestion. It could be anything from a really cool impetus for characters, all the way to something that drives off players due to "removing agency". Both of which are legitimate.

Acknowledging the RP is the solution, as lame and rote as that answer is. I know there are bad actors, and people who "would rather not" RP such things, but I don't think the answer to that is in coding it. To be fair to the thought you've put into it, I don't have suggestions at the time to fix it other than encouraging people to interact with that aspect of the setting more.

 

[Tassadarh]

Ive got many thoughts on the matter, but the only one I have a fully-formed opinion on currently is the idea of making it a community issue. It already is. In fact, while avoiding full spoilers - there is a very expensive ongoing player-oriented plotline that has grown from the idea of magic being a community issue due to damage wisps can do and pose (and have done/posed) to NPCs and PCs alike. Its not a hard-coded thing, and I dont think it necessarily needs to be or even should be.
As to the three proposals you have-

• Tainting a zone is, honestly, rad. I see two problems with it out-of-hand, though. First is that divorcing the result from a single persons action increases the ability to simply ignore the worldbuilding of magic being dangerous. Second, once it gets to a point that the zone -is- too dangerous... well, then I would think people simply wouldnt interact with that zone until reset, if possible. Im sure there are workarounds and fine-tuning that could be done to bring this system into a really good functionality but that seems like it would be along the lines of a seriously intensive core system of a server.
• Cursed loot in a 3.x-based game, while also cool idea - particularly in a pen-and-paper game - I think would result in a less enjoyable playtime for martial characters who classically rely on their loot intake for their power level in NwN.
• I dont know that I can wrap my head around the implications of the changing people suggestion. It could be anything from a really cool impetus for characters, all the way to something that drives off players due to removing agency. Both of which are legitimate.

Acknowledging the RP is the solution, as lame and rote as that answer is. I know there are bad actors, and people who would rather not RP such things, but I dont think the answer to that is in coding it. To be fair to the thought youve put into it, I dont have suggestions at the time to fix it other than encouraging people to interact with that aspect of the setting more.

I do agree that magic should be made more a "community issue" rather than an individual issue (I cast X, but it might blow in my face) or even a party issue (Martin cast X, and we all get the cooties), RP is a powerful tool but I feel it needs to have at least some mechanic tied to it to avoid narrative dissonance.

We say magic is weaker and more volatile, yet casters are still blasting everything it moves and cantrips are now unlimited for wizards and sorcerers (note: DO NOT remove it, having casters become crossbowmen is extremely lame and something that never sit well with me). I feel we need something in that regard that makes the RP believable considering the mechanics we experience, or else we'll create two very distinct attitude that hardly interact: the one we have in town, while RPing, and the one we have adventuring, while PVEing.

On my previous suggestions:

• You are very right on the feedback, and as with all the things I wrote, I'm not 100% sold on them cause I know (aside from coding nightmare) that they would need some heavy design pass to fix things like you said. The main idea was to make the magic anomalies an issue you can spread not just to your party, but also make it harder for the people who come after. This COULD foster the attitude that every dungeon/area needs to be treated with respect and care: if you litter, it becomes a shithole for everyone. Would this make possible that someone who does not care about it in the slightest just go in, make the place A MESS, grab the loot and go? Yes, but we gotta think if this can be something that makes the system more or less engaging from an RP perspective. If there are some *barebone* tools to identify who did this, the person can be confronted about their reckless use of magic (otherwise, people simply have to be lucky to find out they were), this could bring some interesting RP (but it would be *somewhat* intensive, that is true). On the matter of people just avoiding those areas waiting for them to "clean up", same matter: It can be some RP hook for people. They found out the mausoleum out of town is tainted and now it's filled with even more dangerous creatures and zombies roam the graveyard?! Let's build up a party, buy a *anti anomaly gizmo* from the alchemists and venture into the deep of the dungeon, fighting the extra powerful monsters with little loot in return (because if the dungeon boost up to level, people WILL want to have it tainted), only to reach the "end" of the dungeon, place the *anti anomaly gizmo* and leave so that the dungeon can be restored and the extra dangerous things be done... But it might get *boring* having to deal with those kinds of things over and over. I also see them happening mostly on very low level dungeons as new players could be oblivious (or uncaring in case they just want to test out the PVE) make the places go bad, while high level dungeons would be more looked after. It does need some tweaking to avoid making it a real chore, that's for sure, but it could also be an interesting RP opportunity, no idea if it can be replicated often.
• Yeah I thought of that a few hours after I posted. Usually people takes long time dungeoning (doing even more than one in a single venture) and when they get back to town, they just want to sell the loot and log off. Adding another layer that add time and more importantly reduce the reward could be really bothersome. However, I do think there might be some interesting aspect of the cursed loot that can find it's way here. Maybe actual magical items that are very sought after requires a "cleaning", starting from mid to high level? Or maybe a system like the STALKER anomaly handling of artifacts, where you need to put said items in a (leaded) bag so they don't keep spawning anomalies as you walk back to town to have them cleaned and sold? This however would be tied to the "magic taint" meter that was suggested above, so, if you don't want to have to deal with that kind of stuff before you can equip or sell your item, gotta keep "sniffing" the air and check if the magic is getting too thick and you need to let it cool for a moment, imparting some sense of "responsibility" on the magic users in terms of checking it and avoid overdoing it. And yes, it *might* be something that is very server intensive as code goes, especially if we want to keep track of all the dungeons/areas and how many cast were done there... all things to consider!
• I know. Personally I don't mind RP prompts like that, I feel it makes sense that people would be scared of magic users if their minds are clouded by the excessive use of the Art, but I've noticed that in many players, any kind of removal of agency that is not strictly tied to PVE mechanics (if you go 0 hp, you fall down bleeding) is seen as something that simply pushes them away. Hell many people do not want to RP stats because they put those up strictly due to gameplay reasons and not RP reasons. Maybe the mechanized effect is a bit over the top (but I would love to play the magic addicted wizard and have these random-ish times when I just need to cast else I feel magic withdrawal syndrome), but having just a little text prompt that nudges an emotion towards you: you are angry, you are sad, you miss home, you are hungry, you need to laugh. While I understand it might not be much to create an "anti magic" sentiment, maybe it can be something that stays on the side and gives a small reinforcement to the thought that those who uses magic are indeed weird and unpredictable, just like their art. Erodes the trust in a way.

Having said all that.
Yes RP is what we need to have, but mechanics can get the ball rolling much easier than just hoping a perfect storm of players and expectations are met. Not to mention the issue of narrative dissonance that we might feel: sure casters are seen as scary and dangerous in the setting, but I'm a sellsword, I need to kill actual monsters and they make my blade spit fire, make my wounds close with a pat on the shoulder and call down lightning on things that makes us money to kill... who cares if every now and then I need to run away from a light they dropped from their fingers?

However, just in case I wasn't clear before, we do need the anti magic sentiment, but we don't need to make the Magic User PVE experience miserable. It is fine to add more and more features that makes magic "unpredictable and harmful" so that people might be weary of magic, but if it's a flat debuff to the magic users PVE, it will just make people roll a martial to avoid the hassle or people would generally ignore the harmful magic just considering "a new norm". A good way to introduce an anti magic sentiment, after some thought, maybe it is to add something for "both" crowds and make the unpredictable magic more of an outcome of "bad" usage of magic rather than a simple usage.

New (and some revised) ideas then!

• Magic in the air
  Allow magic users to "feel" how the weave is in a certain area/themselves. We can do super in depth with this, maybe giving the skill at different levels to different classes (to represent how they are "capable" of doing it depending on their back ground, wizards should get this ability relatively early, say level 4, other classes maybe a bit later, level 6 for clerics, while maybe sorcerers, due to their unique nature get this immediately at level 2... or just flat give this to everyone at lvl 2... or give it just to arcane spellcasters... we can play a lot with this!) or have it very granular (makes different schools of magic act differently or especially when one is cast after the other accumulate more "anomalous energy", higher circle spells lets out more and more) or simple (a cast spell just add to the pool, no matter the school or circle). But overall, it's very similar to Vermintide Sienna Fuegonasus overcharge mechanic without the ability to release it: you know when you are close to summoning a wisp and thus you'll know when you need to stop casting, to allow the pool to slowly trickle down to a more manageable level. This would surely remove some of the surprise effect, but in turn gives the caster the "responsibility" to keep themselves in check (in case the skill only calculates individual chances of wisps, due to how many spells have been cast and how filled the "anomaly bar" is) or the environment (taste the air and go "yep, we need to dial down the casts my friends, it's getting close to the danger zone"). I suggest making this ability tied to a spellcraft roll, give it a number of charges per rest or simply a cooldown, so people don't spam it and needs to be smart about it. If the idea is neat but we don't want to touch classes, then maybe it could be a very interesting plot to push the arteficers/alchemist guild to begin the construction of some, again, pushing for a spellcraft roll anyways but have the item have charges, so we have another money sink in the system. However I would prefer the skill to be a magic user class feature, and only them: imagine the PSK having to obtain a "sniffing wizard" to go find a rogue mage causing anomalies all around? I do love asynchronous mechanics.
• Dangerous Wisps
  This goes in tandem with any system that allows the magic users to be able to keep the magic anomalies in check without simply making their playstyle fully mundane. But right now, wisps, unless they spawn directly in combat are pretty easy to avoid and even in combat, they are generally slow and there are some ways to stop them (like an item that was introduced, but I strongly suggest to remove it from the loot tables and instead reintroduce it alongside with professions or simply have a server plotline around it, as it really makes this whole narrative aspect of the wisp very tame if people were to begin hoarding those in the near future). IF a system to give a feeble control on when the wisps do spawn is introduced (again, just be able to check if you reached over a threshold that will make wisps spawning pretty common in the next few minutes or so, and thus take action), magic anomalies maybe should be "forced" on the party by making the wisps explosion way more erratic/sooner. Imagine a wips appearing and exploding almost immediately, or an unkillable (or very tanky/high health) wisps that just linger and follow the party, unable to know when it will explode. Or maybe have something different other than just wisps that burst into magic effect, but have the next magic cast by the casters apply something, either to the area, the caster, or just the target (we know we are over threshold, we shouldn't cast, but the cleric still cast cure wounds on someone instead of using the trauma kit... they do heal! but also apply a stat damage to Dex!... or maybe the wizard casting flare but also it "explode" on them, getting the effect of combust, or any other damage spell on them regardless of the element... or paladin cast bless on the party, but then it also cast Darkness on the area!). While we have taken away true unpredictability and lack of control, by giving a tool to ascertain the situation and be more conservative with spellcasting for a moment, maybe even forcing a "break" to the party, allowing a bit of RP while cleaning the dungeon, we have made the danger of breaking the vague limits more pressing, giving slim chance for people to avoid consequences of bad magic management.
• Let it go
  Alongside the above suggestions, an addendum. Suppose we have a way to "lick the air" and know when we need to stop casting so much spell and wait till the weave isn't so erratic around us, especially because the wisps now can hardly be avoided. How about making the release of these magical anomalies a tiny bit more manageable? Casters would get prompt when they are about to release a wisp/anomalous effect, maybe tie it to a concentration roll, as in they managed to hold it... but they won't for long. Next turn they'll get another roll on concentration to hold or release the energies once more and over and over, at a higher DC I'd say. This would allow some semblance of control from the magic users, allowing them to warn their companions or, themselves, to vacate the area. To counter the obvious "cheese" of this, let's force prone (on their knees maybe?) whoever release the wisp, basically assuring they would get the effects on their face. But again, all this would serve if the casters feel they have some way to ascertain the chance of wisps and being able to know when to stop casting to allow the magic energies to stabilise.

Aside from all this, I'm sure there are lore consideration to all this, most of them we don't even know! But I feel that if we create a difference between "good behaviour" and "bad behaviour" spellcasting it would be easier to have most characters on board and not have the server be: if you are a spellcaster, you simply shouldn't PVE if you'd want to make the setting better. We'd need to offer something to chew to the magic crowd as much as the anti-magic crowd and pushing on "responsible spellcasting" might be the way to go (then we could also think on the "perks" of irresponsible spellcasting, and see if that's just an NPC thing or we can also have that on the PC as some sort of "forbidden fruit" that could make them confrontational/villainous characters).

ALSO, even if my ideas aren't that fitting for the server/situation, I do hope they might spark some cooler ideas =)